• OT: mix USB A and C cables to charge a USB C phone?

    From bilsch01@bilsch01@none.com to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Mon May 31 20:01:25 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    The USB charging cable that came with the phone is about 18 inches long
    -very inconvenient. There is a USB C connector on the phone end and a
    USB A connector on the charger end. The charger (Samsung)says:
    Adaptive Fast Charging
    Output:
    9v 1.67A
    5v 2.0A
    Does that mean the charger can have different output voltage depending
    on what is connected?

    My actual question is: what happens if I lengthen the 18 inch cable by connecting a USB type A cable onto the USB A end of the 18 inch cable
    and try charging the phone that way?

    Does a USB C device detect something different from the cable attached?

    TIA. Bill S.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Paul@nospam@needed.invalid to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Tue Jun 1 00:07:02 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    bilsch01 wrote:
    The USB charging cable that came with the phone is about 18 inches long -very inconvenient. There is a USB C connector on the phone end and a
    USB A connector on the charger end. The charger (Samsung)says:
    Adaptive Fast Charging
    Output:
    9v 1.67A
    5v 2.0A
    Does that mean the charger can have different output voltage depending
    on what is connected?

    My actual question is: what happens if I lengthen the 18 inch cable by connecting a USB type A cable onto the USB A end of the 18 inch cable
    and try charging the phone that way?

    Does a USB C device detect something different from the cable attached?

    TIA. Bill S.

    Have another look at that cable.

    Something doesn't add up here.

    USB-C is 24 pins, and the connector can
    safely be rotated 180 degrees before insertion.
    It has USB PD spec, a later thing, to control
    large power options, ones which no TypeA could
    ever handle. In fact, just recently, the idiots
    put 48V on the connector, and created a new power
    tier. This is getting close to some of the SELV
    limits.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C

    Whereas another standard is microUSB. And the
    Adaptive Fast Charging was a previous ad-hoc standard
    of sorts. With manufacturers trying to one-up each
    other, with more and more powerful options.

    You can see this MicroUSB has five pins.

    Have a look again at the cabling.

    The older standards use purely dumb cabling,
    making the characteristics more predictable.

    You could put an extension in the path, and if it is
    USB to microUSB, there would be little impact for
    a short cable run. Rather than just any old adapter,
    you could actually find a longer USB to microUSB.
    Perhaps someone will even label it as a charging cable
    for you, ensuring VBUS and GND use stout wires.

    USB3 microUSB has two sections, one section is USB2
    the other section is USB3.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Connector_USB_3_IMGP6033_wp.jpg/330px-Connector_USB_3_IMGP6033_wp.jpg

    There are more pictures here.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware

    Adaptive Fast Charging is mentioned here.
    The thing has gone from "perhaps useful" to
    completely ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as
    USB PD putting 48V on a USB-C connector.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge

    too high a charging current, leads to reduced
    charging cycles. For example, there's not much
    reason to be delivering 200W to a phone. It can't
    use all of it.

    Some of the cabling schemes use a negotiation chip,
    so the cables are considered "smart". Your scheme
    is likely "dumb", and with a little luck, a bit safer.
    As the cable has just wires in it, and it's up to the
    two ends to work with one another.

    I'm against consumer-unfriendly standards. Why should
    every consumer need an engineering degree, to cable
    up peripherals ??? This makes no sense at all, and the
    Quick Charge article, even just skimming the table,
    you can see nobody wins when you do things that way.
    All this approach does, is make people fearful
    when charging their phone. It should not have to be
    the spin of a roulette wheel.

    Paul
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Abandoned_Trolley@fred@fred-smith.uk to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Tue Jun 1 08:49:02 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    On 01/06/2021 04:01, bilsch01 wrote:
    The USB charging cable that came with the phone is about 18 inches long -very inconvenient. There is a USB C connector on the phone end and a
    USB A connector on the charger end. The charger (Samsung)says:
    Adaptive Fast Charging
    Output:
    9v  1.67A
    5v  2.0A
    Does that mean the charger can have different output voltage depending
    on what is connected?

    My actual question is: what happens if I lengthen the 18 inch cable by connecting a USB type A cable onto the USB A end of the 18 inch cable
    and try charging the phone that way?

    Does a USB C device detect something different from the cable attached?

    TIA.   Bill S.



    Or maybe the phone detects something and the USB C connector at the
    phone might not be relevant ?

    If the other end of the cable is a USB A connector then its only got 4
    pins, one of which is the power, which is supposed to be 5 volts.

    Unless its a USB 3 "superspeed" in which case it has 9 pins, one of
    which is the power, which is still supposed to be 5 volts.

    AFAIK there's no 9 volt pin

    My Samsung phone has a pop up message on it which appears when the
    charger is plugged in. The message tells me that the phone is being
    charged, and how long it will take to be fully charged.

    Messing about with the various USB chargers around the house, the
    indicated charge time varies from about 40 minutes to more than 5 hours. Obviously there's something in the phone to detect the available charge current.

    The thing at the other end of the cable is a fairly dumb power source,
    so dont expect it to adhere to the fine points of whichever USB standard
    you like to think is in force.

    You are just overthinking the problem - the "U" of USB was put there for
    a reason.

    AT
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Anssi Saari@as@sci.fi to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Tue Jun 1 11:29:00 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    bilsch01 <bilsch01@none.com> writes:

    The USB charging cable that came with the phone is about 18 inches
    long -very inconvenient. There is a USB C connector on the phone end
    and a USB A connector on the charger end. The charger (Samsung)says:
    Adaptive Fast Charging
    Output:
    9v 1.67A
    5v 2.0A
    Does that mean the charger can have different output voltage depending
    on what is connected?

    Yes. If you like fast charging it's a very nice thing. Otherwise you can usually use any USB 5V 2A (or less) charger for slow charging.

    My actual question is: what happens if I lengthen the 18 inch cable by connecting a USB type A cable onto the USB A end of the 18 inch cable
    and try charging the phone that way?

    All the intelligence for negotiating charge voltage and current is in
    the devices. So you get faster charging as long as your phone and
    charger can reach an agreement. This is by no means a given, I've found
    my Oneplus charger won't charge my Sony headphones or my wife's Samsung
    phone for example.

    At least this proprietary fast charging crap seems to be going away in
    favor of standard USB PD.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mike Easter@MikeE@ster.invalid to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Tue Jun 1 09:58:58 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    bilsch01 wrote:
    The USB charging cable that came with the phone is about 18 inches long -very inconvenient. There is a USB C connector on the phone end and a
    USB A connector on the charger end. The charger (Samsung)says:
    Adaptive Fast Charging

    Amazon:

    https://www.amazon.com/Long-Charger-Cord-Samsung-Cell-Phone/s?k=Long+Charger+Cord+for+Samsung+Cell+Phone
    "Long Charger Cord for Samsung Cell Phone"

    The Samsung page for chargers & accessories doesn't have any cables listed.

    --
    Mike Easter
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Abandoned_Trolley@fred@fred-smith.uk to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Tue Jun 1 22:02:18 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu



    The Samsung page for chargers & accessories doesn't have any cables listed.



    although a number of the cables listed here are for Samsung phones, some
    of which do NOT have USB C connectors - so be careful
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From blind Pete@psd@BB.live to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Wed Jun 2 16:14:26 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 11:29:00 +0300
    Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:

    bilsch01 <bilsch01@none.com> writes:

    The USB charging cable that came with the phone is about 18 inches
    long -very inconvenient. There is a USB C connector on the phone end
    and a USB A connector on the charger end. The charger (Samsung)says: Adaptive Fast Charging
    Output:
    9v 1.67A
    5v 2.0A
    Does that mean the charger can have different output voltage
    depending on what is connected?

    Yes. If you like fast charging it's a very nice thing. Otherwise you
    can usually use any USB 5V 2A (or less) charger for slow charging.

    My actual question is: what happens if I lengthen the 18 inch cable
    by connecting a USB type A cable onto the USB A end of the 18 inch
    cable and try charging the phone that way?

    That depends.

    The OLD version 1 allowed for a maximum of 500mA at 5V, so don't expect
    that sort of cable to survive the electrical and fire hazards.

    The later version 3 cables look very similar but are rated for 900mA.

    "Non standard" cables could handle what ever they were designed for,
    perhaps 2.4A.

    All the intelligence for negotiating charge voltage and current is in
    the devices. So you get faster charging as long as your phone and
    charger can reach an agreement. This is by no means a given, I've
    found my Oneplus charger won't charge my Sony headphones or my wife's
    Samsung phone for example.

    Sometimes cables are "intelligent" and enter into the negotiation. I
    *think* that the voltage drop from one end of the cable to the other is monitored and taken into consideration when trying to determine the
    quality of the cable.

    At least this proprietary fast charging crap seems to be going away in
    favor of standard USB PD.

    With any luck any cable should work, slowly, and a good cable should
    work perfectly. It is just a bit hard to tell which is which.

    Throw away and damaged cables, and be suspicious of any that get warm.

    bP

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Abandoned_Trolley@fred@fred-smith.uk to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Wed Jun 2 09:27:01 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    Sometimes cables are "intelligent" and enter into the negotiation. I
    *think* that the voltage drop from one end of the cable to the other is monitored and taken into consideration when trying to determine the
    quality of the cable.

    I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I find this idea laughably implausible.

    However I would be interested to hear some more detail on how you think
    it might be engineered, bearing in mind that the "source" is a wall-wart
    power supply, not a supercomputer

    AT

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Paul@nospam@needed.invalid to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Wed Jun 2 05:57:31 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
    Sometimes cables are "intelligent" and enter into the negotiation. I
    *think* that the voltage drop from one end of the cable to the other is
    monitored and taken into consideration when trying to determine the
    quality of the cable.

    I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I find this idea laughably implausible.

    However I would be interested to hear some more detail on how you think
    it might be engineered, bearing in mind that the "source" is a wall-wart power supply, not a supercomputer

    AT


    Here's a picture, for USB-C.

    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/Fig3m11292018.png

    And this is an example of the "far end" circuit. This product
    uses a push button, to step through the PD negotiated states.
    Because it has a small flash memory onboard, it can also remember
    what the user selected, and start up in the same state each time.

    https://www.amazon.ca/Type-C-USB-C-Charge-Trigger-Detector/dp/B07T6LPP9W?th=1

    This is a scope trace, of the negotiated voltage on the PD cable.

    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/Fig6m11292018.png

    The Quick Charge has its own protocol, and likely different
    connector choices. And the protocol changes from one version
    of Quick Charge to the next. So far, haven't managed to find
    even a start at some idea how it works. It apparently uses D+/D-
    for negotiation, and doesn't require USB-C (an excess of pins)
    for the protocol. Whereas MediaTek Pump, uses current modulation
    for signaling.

    The notion that USB PD is "friendly", is that it is policed
    via silicon, from end to end. But on the other hand, requires
    an engineering degree to figure out what is fucking up,
    and what degree of "non-compliance" appeared in the Chinese tat
    you bought.

    The Quick Charge thing, was probably designed to sell "branded" power components, whereas USB PD implies "mix and match, assuming it works".
    The Google individual, who was testing cables for the community as
    a kind of lark project, I believe his laptop was ruined by one
    of the cables he bought. Which is the best cautionary tale one
    could hope for in such an experiment - testing enough cables
    for us, to demonstrate what a worst-case experience could be.

    Can you tell I'm not a fan of adaptive power ??? Grrr. Stupid crap.

    Paul
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Abandoned_Trolley@someone@microsoft.com to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Wed Jun 2 11:09:37 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    On 02/06/2021 10:57, Paul wrote:
    Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
    Sometimes cables are "intelligent" and enter into the negotiation.  I
    *think* that the voltage drop from one end of the cable to the other is
    monitored and taken into consideration when trying to determine the
    quality of the cable.

    I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I find this idea laughably
    implausible.

    However I would be interested to hear some more detail on how you
    think it might be engineered, bearing in mind that the "source" is a
    wall-wart power supply, not a supercomputer

    AT


    Here's a picture, for USB-C.

    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/Fig3m11292018.png

    And this is an example of the "far end" circuit. This product
    uses a push button, to step through the PD negotiated states.
    Because it has a small flash memory onboard, it can also remember
    what the user selected, and start up in the same state each time.

    https://www.amazon.ca/Type-C-USB-C-Charge-Trigger-Detector/dp/B07T6LPP9W?th=1


    This is a scope trace, of the negotiated voltage on the PD cable.

    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/Fig6m11292018.png

    The Quick Charge has its own protocol, and likely different
    connector choices. And the protocol changes from one version
    of Quick Charge to the next. So far, haven't managed to find
    even a start at some idea how it works. It apparently uses D+/D-
    for negotiation, and doesn't require USB-C (an excess of pins)
    for the protocol. Whereas MediaTek Pump, uses current modulation
    for signaling.

    The notion that USB PD is "friendly", is that it is policed
    via silicon, from end to end. But on the other hand, requires
    an engineering degree to figure out what is fucking up,
    and what degree of "non-compliance" appeared in the Chinese tat
    you bought.

    The Quick Charge thing, was probably designed to sell "branded" power components, whereas USB PD implies "mix and match, assuming it works".
    The Google individual, who was testing cables for the community as
    a kind of lark project, I believe his laptop was ruined by one
    of the cables he bought. Which is the best cautionary tale one
    could hope for in such an experiment - testing enough cables
    for us, to demonstrate what a worst-case experience could be.

    Can you tell I'm not a fan of adaptive power ??? Grrr. Stupid crap.

       Paul

    No, I cant tell

    I also cant tell how the system "negotiates" with a wall-wart

    AT
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Paul@nospam@needed.invalid to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Wed Jun 2 06:36:58 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    Abandoned_Trolley wrote:


    No, I cant tell

    I also cant tell how the system "negotiates" with a wall-wart

    AT

    OK, here's a site for you, for how PD works.

    https://www.embedded.com/usb-type-c-and-power-delivery-101-power-delivery-protocol/

    It shows the packet definitions.

    *******

    For the Electronically Marked Cables (USB-C cable with chip-in-cable)...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C

    "The electronic ID chip provides information about

    product/vendor
    cable connectors
    USB signalling protocol (USB2.0, USB3 Gen 1, USB3 Gen 2)
    passive/active construction
    use of VCONN power
    available VBUS current <=== allows cable to indicate wire gauge limitations
    latency
    RX/TX directionality
    SOP controller mode
    hardware/firmware version [of the ID chip]
    "

    Paul
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From DanS@t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Wed Jun 2 06:59:11 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in
    news:s97n0b$ejj$1@dont-email.me:

    Abandoned_Trolley wrote:


    No, I cant tell

    I also cant tell how the system "negotiates" with a
    wall-wart

    AT

    OK, here's a site for you, for how PD works.

    https://www.embedded.com/usb-type-c-and-power-delivery-101-p ower-delivery-protocol/

    It shows the packet definitions.

    *******

    For the Electronically Marked Cables (USB-C cable with
    chip-in-cable)...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C

    "The electronic ID chip provides information about

    product/vendor
    cable connectors
    USB signalling protocol (USB2.0, USB3 Gen 1, USB3 Gen
    2) passive/active construction
    use of VCONN power
    available VBUS current <=== allows cable to indicate
    wire gauge limitations latency
    RX/TX directionality
    SOP controller mode
    hardware/firmware version [of the ID chip]
    "

    Paul

    'Smart Cables'......f*cking ridiculous.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Abandoned_Trolley@someone@microsoft.com to alt.os.linux.ubuntu on Wed Jun 2 14:40:34 2021
    From Newsgroup: alt.os.linux.ubuntu

    On 02/06/2021 12:59, DanS wrote:
    Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in
    news:s97n0b$ejj$1@dont-email.me:

    Abandoned_Trolley wrote:


    No, I cant tell

    I also cant tell how the system "negotiates" with a
    wall-wart

    AT

    OK, here's a site for you, for how PD works.

    https://www.embedded.com/usb-type-c-and-power-delivery-101-p
    ower-delivery-protocol/

    It shows the packet definitions.

    *******

    For the Electronically Marked Cables (USB-C cable with
    chip-in-cable)...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C

    "The electronic ID chip provides information about

    product/vendor
    cable connectors
    USB signalling protocol (USB2.0, USB3 Gen 1, USB3 Gen
    2) passive/active construction
    use of VCONN power
    available VBUS current <=== allows cable to indicate
    wire gauge limitations latency
    RX/TX directionality
    SOP controller mode
    hardware/firmware version [of the ID chip]
    "

    Paul

    'Smart Cables'......f*cking ridiculous.



    I agree

    And lets not forget that the USB "C" connector was designed for people
    who cannot work out which way round the thing goes in the hole (as the
    actress said to the bishop)
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113